Mary Jo Kopechne was unable to be reached for comment
I've even used this response once or twice, but it's wrong. I'm not even really talking about Mrs. P's response here, but just the general line of thinking.
Let me first state that what Ted Kennedy did was horrific and him not spending even one day in jail for it is a gross injustice. Yet, there have been 40 intervening years. Ted Kennedy did many things in those years, including drinking, carousing, and furthering political polices that I hate, but it's not right to just throw out Mary Jo Kopechne as if it were some trump card to undermine Ted's moral credibility at every turn.
In fact, I'd argue it's a very un-Christian thing to believe that somebody is beyond redemption. A terrible mistake forty years ago doesn't give us the right to dismiss all subsequent acts and deeds as morally questionable.
Now, there's a question of whether Teddy really did redeem himself. To liberals, the answer is probably, yes, in that he worked to ameliorate the circumstances of the poor and underprivileged. Many on the right will say, no, he, like all the Kennedy boys, had severe character flaws, including the ones that led to the death of Mary Jo Kopechne, that he never addressed or atoned for.
I'm somewhere in the middle. I disagreed with his public policy preferences, but I never doubted his sincerity. Sure, he was misguided, but he meant well in his politics. His personal life was another story, but that's not a particularly compelling concern to me. I do agree that the Mary Jo Kopechne accident rightful disqualified him from the presidency in the public's mind, but to say it taints all his subsequent actions is to imply that he is beyond redemption. To say he is beyond redemption is a violation of basic Christian tenets.
Now, I recognize that what Teddy did wasn't very Christian, but that doesn't mean he is beyond redemption. Nobody is. Or at least, that's the theory.
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I agree with you, it is not us who decide if someone is beyond redemption. God is the judge. But we can judge people based on the things they say, write or do as to whether or not, they are total creeps. To wit - here is some newish info on the late Ted Kennedy:
From The Corner,Friday, August 28, 2009
'One of his favorite topics of humor was Chappaquiddick' [Mark Hemingway]
"Jules Crittenden mentioned on his blog he heard Ed Klein, former foreign editor of Newsweek and editor-in-chief of The New York Times Magazine, recalling on air that Ted Kennedy liked to joke about Chappaquiddick. It seemed to defy belief, so I listened to the episode of The Diane Rehm Show in question and sure enough — I've transcribed what Klein told guest host Katy Kay (Here's a link to the audio in WMA format, relevant portion starts at about 30:15):
" I don't know if you know this or not, but one of his favorite topics of humor was indeed Chappaquiddick itself. And he would ask people, ""have you heard any new jokes about Chappaquiddick?"" That is just the most amazing thing. It's not that he didn't feel remorse about the death of Mary Jo Kopechne, but that he still always saw the other side of everything and the ridiculous side of things, too.
"EXCUSE ME? If that's true, it makes Kennedy kind of a monster. The odd thing is that if you listen to the whole show, the tone of everyone involved is nauseatingly hagiographic and reverential. Klein apparently let his guard down a bit; after he lets it slip Kennedy liked to joke about the woman he killed you can actually hear in his voice that he's trying to backpedal. The show actually cuts to a break as he's trying to explain himself, and I seriously wonder if it wasn't the producers trying to do Klein a favor. But I'm sorry, there appears to be little to that could explain this. It goes way beyond ""you had to be there.""
"UPDATE: ...Ed Morrissey has the audio much more convinently packaged at this YouTube link."
This from August 26th, 2009 at Lifesite - I think-:
"U.S. Senator Edward Kennedy, one of the leading forces of liberalism in the Senate for over a quarter-century, died Tuesday night at his home in Hyannis Port, Massachusetts. [...] Known as "the lion of the Senate," Kennedy was one of the most formidable opponents to American conservatism ever to claim a seat in the Senate. NARAL awarded a 100% pro-abortion voting record to the Massachusetts senator, who also championed embryonic stem cell research and same-sex "marriage." He was one of only fourteen senators who voted against the federal Defense of Marriage Act in 1996. "
Con'td...
Cont'd:
Then this from Kennedy himself address to Pope Benedict XVI - the last line is the *money quote*:
"Most Holy Father I asked President Obama to personally hand deliver this letter to you. As a man of deep faith himself, he understands how important my Roman Catholic faith is to me, and I am so deeply grateful to him [...] I am writing with deep humility to ask that you pray for me as my own health declines.
"I was diagnosed with brain cancer more than a year ago and although I continue treatment, the disease is taking its toll on me. I am 77 years old and preparing for the next passage of life. I have been blessed to be part of a wonderful family and both of my parents, particularly my mother, kept our Catholic faith at the center of our lives. That gift of faith has sustained and nurtured and provides solace to me in the darkest hours. I know that I have been an imperfect human being, but with the help of my faith I have tried to right my path. I want you to know Your Holiness that in my nearly 50 years of elective office I have done my best to champion the rights of the poor and open doors of economic opportunity. I have worked to welcome the immigrant, to fight discrimination and expand access to health care and education. I have opposed the death penalty and fought to end war.
"Those are the issues that have motivated me and have been the focus of my work as a United States senator. I also want you to know that even though I am ill, I am committed to do everything I can to achieve access to health care for everyone in my country. This has been the political cause of my life. I believe in a conscience protection for Catholics in the health field and I will continue to advocate for it as my colleagues in the Senate and I work to develop an overall national health policy that guarantees health care for everyone. I have always tried to be a faithful Catholic, Your Holiness, and though I have fallen short through human failings, I have never failed to believe and respect the fundamental teachings of my faith..."
Mary Jo Kopechne, 35 million unborn, and the late Catholic Charities adoption services in Massachusetts were unable to be reached for comment....
Sorry FLG, the Dems are making me do it....
Mrs. P
Well maybe I could've been in the senate too if my father's rum-running dollars had been behind me.
Ted Kennedy is the exact model of the Idle Rich that liberals claim to despise so much.
Ask Mary Jo's family how they feel about redemption?
There was nothing good or decent in him.
His carcass should have been left in the gutter.
I'm sure he would have felt right at home.
Some men bring this about (an unforgiving nature of others) not by their actions but their reactions to the harm and evil they do. I was always impressed that after the notorious Profumo affair:
Harold Macmillan resigned (due to poor health purportedly), Stephen Ward committed suicide and John Profumo lived the rest of his life humbly and repentant -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Profumo
Kennedy, along with the far more egregious sins against Mary Jo Kopechne and the unborn, which he not only supported but also championed, wasn’t much of a patriot either –
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/kgb_kennedy_the_ted_kennedy_i.html
We owe him not one iota of respect and the only Chrisitan charity he was ever entitled to; prayer, for him and his soul. To have warranted more than that, to have warranted forgiveness and forgetting the past would have required a repentant man and a man who did not go about, by his actions, reminding everyone that the past is prologue.
The lack of remorse and repentance is key.
To follow up on Mrs. P's reference to the astonishing information that Kennedy liked humor about Chappaquiddick: What the hell sort of jokes do people tell about Chappaquiddick, anyway?
"Knock knock."
"Who's there?"
"Teddy Kennedy, and there's been a terrible accident!"
"Teddy Kennedy, and there's been a terrible accident who?"
"Nah, just foolin'. Actually I'm already sleeping it off in an Edgartown motel!"
Rather remarkable to read comments from Christians that fly in the face of cautions from their savior to be forgiving and not judgmental, all arguing that another Christian was insufficiently adherent to the faith.
I have often wondered, Mrs. P, if you share, or would dare to share some of your comments with your priest. I imagine not. But then I have to wonder how a person who believes in an omnipotent and omnipresent being can think her comments are unobserved. It is not the "Dems" or the devil who make you "do it." You are responsible for your own conduct every bit as much as Senator Kennedy was responsible for his. He, at least, took responsibility for his failings and tried to redeem himself. You continue to issue vile comments that would make an honest priest blanch. Good luck with that.
“Rather remarkable to read comments from Christians that fly in the face of cautions from their savior to be forgiving and not judgmental, all arguing that another Christian was insufficiently adherent to the faith.”
Alan
Jesus to the Sadducees or Pharisees (or whomever, I forget) to their reaction of his having healed a man on the Sabbath (John 7:24)
“Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
And, (James 5:20)
“remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”
And, (Timothy 4:2)
“Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.”
And, on and on and there’s more, but you get the picture.
Finally, were judgment to play no part in our lives we would miss you terribly.
George, you will agree with me, won't you, that there is a large and important difference between criticizing someone for their actions--especially actions within their rational control--and attacks on that person?
Likewise, using generalizations or stereotypes to attack a group or to assign collective guilt, an activity we see often here, is inappropriate. I argued years ago that we Floridians should not be characterized as pedophiles merely because of a recent spate of child abductions, rapes, and murders. Similarly, all Muslims (to take a favored current target) are not terrorists. The "Dems" are not conspiring to write attacks for Mrs. P.
But for the faithful even actions, whatever the merit in criticizing them, warrant forgiveness. Or do I misunderstand the last few words of Jesus?
"You continue to issue vile comments that would make an honest priest blanch."
George, we're making progress here. We actually got an atheist to admit there is "an honest priest".
Mr. Howe, how can an atheist in good conscience put in writing that there is an honest priest?
Admit it, you wrote that to make me feel bad....
BTW, you should hear the things I say to my honest priests- especially in the confessional. Yes, I'm sure I've caused a great deal of blanching too!
God is the most intelligent being in Existence. When we sign up to follow him, he does not expect us, or like us to check our brains at the door. I'm convinced this is why he inspired and gave the courage to our Founding Fathers to have Freedom of Speech.
Mrs. P
Cheers!
Oops! in my merriment, I forgot to capitalize - is that the correct spelling - He when referring to God.
Oh, and Mr. Howe, a little inside horse trading. A cousin of mine was the coroner in Chappaquiddick that summer....
Mrs. P
"Admit it, you wrote that to make me feel bad...."
I have no interest in making you or anyone else feel bad. And I continue to abhor your continued assertion of motives to the actions of others. You do not possess that insight.
My interest is in convincing you to refrain from attacking others and making them "feel bad." I do not expect a change in conduct from you to come from my views, however. So, I hope a reflection on your beliefs and your savior might have some positive effect.
To reiterate, I do not believe in criticizing people for their identity, and I do not engage in collective guilt. That a priest believes in an entity that I do not, does not mean that I dislike the priest or priests as a group. Catholics, by and large, pursue the same social goals that I pursue, and I welcome their help. Some priests are, as I am certain you agree, dishonest. Most are honest. That assessment has nothing to do with their religious view, and the actions of a few do not condemn the entire group.
"Catholics, by and large, pursue the same social goals that I pursue, and I welcome their help."
Now Ted Kennedy could have written that! Hey, in fact he did in his letter to the Pope. LA!
To kind of quote Bill Clinton, this all depends on the meaning of "same".
What separates us Catholics and you Atheists as far as social goals goals condemns us to Hell. In other words, the common ground we have ain't worth the trouble you bring to the table so let's continue working separately...no bad feelings or anything. It's just the truth and you should be pleased I understand this.
For this next bit, forget my nastiness and Fear not, God won't ever so you can do it for just a moment. Did the Vatican did release a letter on Teddy after his death or in his final hours? Not that any of us were aware of. Teddy did release his letter to the Pope after his death. Was it read at his funeral? I'm not sure but they did pray for health care for all at his funeral...but I digress.
Did you by any chance see the letter the Vatican - well the Vatican's representative in America - released during Eunice Kennedy Shriver's final hours? To kind of quote Robert Frost "it makes all that all the difference...":
"August 11, 2009 12:00 AM
"THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
"BARNSTABLE — Pope Benedict XVI was praying for former President John F. Kennedy's sister Eunice Kennedy Shiver on Monday as she remained hospitalized in critical condition, a Vatican ambassador said.
"Shriver, 88, has been hospitalized since last week. Members of her extended family, including California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who's married to her daughter, Maria Shriver, have gathered at her bedside at Cape Cod Hospital in Barnstable.
"The pope's representative to the United States, Archbishop Pietro Sambi, on Monday wrote a letter to Shriver's husband and their five children, members of one of the country's most prominent Roman Catholic families.
""His Holiness unites himself spiritually with each of you at this difficult time, holding close Eunice as she is called home to eternal life and trusting in the words of Sacred Scripture: What will separate us from the love of Christ?"" said the letter, which was released to The Associated Press.
"The pope prayed Shriver would be rewarded for her ardent faith and generous public service, particularly for those who are physically and mentally challenged, the letter said."
We do not know if Ted Kennedy had a Lord Marchmain deathbed moment and repented for the things he did as a Catholic like earning a 100% NARAL voting record, voting against the partial birth ban and the defense of marriage act or even what I thought was the most grave error in his letter to the Pope,
"I believe in a conscience protection for Catholics in the health field and I will continue to advocate for it"
Teddy's error was that he wrote to the Pope he was only going to advocate a conscience clause for Catholics - not Protestants, Jews. Muslims, Hindus or even Atheists. That is a most poor understanding of Catholic social teachings made to Christ's Vicar on Earth no less. Christ came for ALL. Not some.
I hope Ted had a Lord Marchmain moment. Not just for his sake but for his collected family's sake. He was a malignant force. If in his final moments he understood this, and showed them this by repenting, then he gave them the greatest gift he ever could have.
Mrs. P
According to the Boston Herald, the Vatican's response to Senator Kennedy read in part,
“His Holiness prays that in the days ahead, you may be sustained in faith and hope, and granted the precious grace of joyful surrender to the will of God, our merciful Father. He invokes upon you the consolation and peace promised by the Risen Savior to all who share in His sufferings, and trust in His promise of eternal life.”
But I want to again urge you to stop trafficking in generalizations and stereotypes. I don't know that I have a single atheist among my friends. I do have among my friends several Catholics and other Christians, a number of Jews, and a few Muslims. We get along quite well, pursuing the same social goals independently and collectively. I do not and will not pretend to speak for all atheists, and I know without a shadow of doubt that you do not speak for all Catholics. You continue, despite my urging, to construct a straw man conception of liberals, atheist, and other categories and to insist that anyone you append those labels to fit inside your straw men. This probably hurts you more than any of your targets. Your faith argues against this behavior.
“But for the faithful even actions, whatever the merit in criticizing them, warrant forgiveness. Or do I misunderstand the last few words of Jesus?”
Alan,
Are you referring to ”Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do”?
What then the course of action for those who know what they do is wrong, continue to do wrong, work to legalize the wrong, and fight for the expansion of that wrong?
An excerpt from a letter to Catholic League member Tom Dennelly written by Senator Edward Kennedy in 1971 expressing his views on abortion (a year-and-a-half before Roe v. Wade).
“While the deep concern of a woman bearing an unwanted child merits consideration and sympathy, it is my personal feeling that the legalization of abortion on demand is not in accordance with the value which our civilization places on human life. Wanted or unwanted, I believe that human life, even at its earliest stages, has certain rights which must be recognized—the right to be born, the right to love, the right to grow old.
“On the question of the individual’s freedom of choice there are easily available birth control methods and information which women may employ to prevent or postpone pregnancy. But once life has begun, no matter at what stage of growth, it is my belief that termination should not be decided merely by desire.
“When history looks back to this era it should recognize this generation as one which cared about human beings enough to halt the practice of war, to provide a decent living for every family, and to fulfill its responsibility to its children from the very moment of conception.”
Kennedy fell – hard. To point out the depth and darkness in which T.K. fell is to criticize. To
react to his grandstanding debauched clownish ways is to criticize. That such criticism meets the criteria for “attack” I’ll leave to your judgment but I am reminded of the story of the old prospector who had tired of reigning, urging, cajoling, and whipping his stubborn mule to move – to no avail. He finally took to thwacking the critter in the head with a rail post whenever it was time to get a move on. “What did you do that for?” asked a bystander upon witnessing this new method. Replied the prospector, “well first you’ve got to get his attention”.
Whatever “attack”, criticism having failed in its intent, is to come my way, and the purpose of which is to save my soul, I welcome. Well, okay, I’ll eventually welcome. Perhaps those criticisms/attacks had some good effect on Ted Kennedy when the tumor also attacked and perhaps he’ll have the forgiveness of the One whose forgiveness alone means anything to anyone. As to my forgiveness, he made me no harm personally, and I cannot forgive him in the name of those he did harm.
* Sigh * Another nail in Teddy's coffin. His life's work - Obamacare- will provided funds for abortion for All.
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/09/11/obamacare-federal-money-would-fund-abortion/
No wonder he was careful to mention his advocating (but not demanding) a conscience cause for Catholics Only to Pope Benedict...
No mention yet of Ted's clause for Catholics Only being in Obamacare.
It's Catholics like Ted who make honest priests do more than blanche.
Mrs. P
The Washington Post reports this morning that the "Gang of Six" currently negotiating a bill in the Senate has yet to determine if language should be included to explicitly prohibit public funding for abortion and coverage for illegal immigrants. While calling the various programs "Obamacare" may be gratifying, the plans are all coming from the Congress. President Obama will own the bill he signs, not the various proposals from Congressmen and Senators. "Obamacare" is a premature appellation.
George, I welcome criticism of my behavior. I welcome criticism of others behavior. Personal attacks and stereotypes are the unwelcome offenses. They tend to create an animosity that makes the problems more intractable, not less.
"What then the course of action for those who know what they do is wrong, continue to do wrong, work to legalize the wrong, and fight for the expansion of that wrong?"
Criticize and fight against their behavior. Show them and others the error. Strenuously avoid the hypocrisy of engaging in the same behavior to counteract the original offense.
But, let's not be too simplistic on abortion. Given a life-threatening situation, which life is more valuable? The mother? The fetus? And, more important to whom? There are few or no pro-abortion advocates. There are, rather, people who think a woman should not have to die or suffer grievous harm to complete a pregnancy and who further believe that we, as individuals, should be able to make decisions for ourselves, rather than our government making those decisions for us. I understand your arguments against that position, but I promise you that the people who hold these views are not all evil baby killers. Most put a great deal of thought into this conundrum. Roe v. Wade remains in effect more than three decades later. There is a Libertarian reason for that, not merely a Liberal one.
"Criticize and fight against their behavior. Show them and others the error. Strenuously avoid the hypocrisy of engaging in the same behavior to counteract the original offense."
So, when did I drive a girl off a bridge and leave her to die, participate in waitress sandwiches with Chris Dodd, or earn a 100% voting record from NARAL?
Gesh. The things you think I do Mr. Howe. Really.
By the by, speaking of malignant Ted's force, did you catch this at the HuffPo:
Melissa Lafsky
Melissa Lafsky
Ex-lawyer, blogger, writer
Posted: August 27, 2009 10:17 AM
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The Footnote Speaks: What Would Mary Jo Kopechne Have Thought of Ted's Career?
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Comments
We're comfortable with moral relativism in this country -- or, at least, we love us a good "sinned and redeemed" narrative. And, for the most part, we realize that there are few lives on which we can slap a "Good" or "Evil" label and expect it to be accurate.
Which, let's face it, is one of the reasons the Ted Kennedy story is so fascinating. The huge achievements, weighed against the huge sins. Forty-six years of history-book accomplishments on everything from Civil Rights to the Americans with Disabilities Act to gender equality. Disabled? Poor? A member of any minority group? Then chances are your life is at least somewhat better because of Ted Kennedy. And for anyone who started to lose faith in the left's seeming impotence over the past decade (cough cough) he provided a pretty strong reason not to throw in the towel.
So now he's dead, and we do what we do when a Kennedy dies: read and write obsessively about him. Some of the obituaries are point-counterpoint parallels of sin with salvation. Then there are obsequious, grandiose bromides like:
He was a Rabelaisian figure in the Senate and in life, instantly recognizable by his shock of white hair, his florid, oversize face, his booming Boston brogue, his powerful but pained stride. He was a celebrity, sometimes a self-parody, a hearty friend, an implacable foe, a man of large faith and large flaws, a melancholy character who persevered, drank deeply and sang loudly. He was a Kennedy.
Good grief.
But in all the florid or scalpel-sharp prose, there's one constant: Peeking out from the center of the story is the matter of his playing a major part in the death of a 28-year-old woman.
Mary Jo wasn't a right-wing talking point or a negative campaign slogan. She was a dedicated civil rights activist and political talent with a bright future -- granted, whenever someone dies young, people sermonize about how he had a "bright future" ahead of him -- but she actually did. She wasn't afraid to defy convention (28 and unmarried, oh the horror!) or create her own career path based on her talents. She lived in Georgetown (where I grew up) and loved the Red Sox (we'll forgive her for that). Then she got in a car driven by a 36-year-old senator with an alcohol problem and a cauldron full of demons, and wound up a controversial footnote in a dynasty.
We don't know how much Kennedy was affected by her death, or what she'd have thought about arguably being a catalyst for the most successful Senate career in history. What we don't know, as always, could fill a Metrodome.
Still, ignorance doesn't preclude a right to wonder. So it doesn't automatically make someone (aka, me) a Limbaugh-loving, aerial-wolf-hunting NRA troll for asking what Mary Jo Kopechne would have had to say about Ted's death, and what she'd have thought of the life and career that are being (rightfully) heralded.
Who knows -- maybe she'd feel it was worth it.
This post originally appeared on Opinionistas.com.
-----
BTW, George, do you and I reside in the same state now?
Alan,
“Criticize and fight against their behavior.”
Is to point out that a public official has in his professional and private life (lived publicly) acted the debauched, drunken, immoral, traitorous buffoon beyond the scope of decent criticism? We’re not discussing tea time table manners faux pas but something clearly decadent.
“But let's not be too simplistic on abortion.”
Lets… not. To implicate the life/health of the mother as a defense for some thirty million abortions (I’ve lost count. Keeping up with the count is like watching those tickers that click off a million dollars of national debt per second) leads me to believe they’re not making women the way they used to. I’ll grant you that most people are not pro-abortion. Now grant me that some people, people in high places, people who make and execute the laws are Pro-Abortion. How else to explain the resolute ambition (such as Obama’s and Kennedy’s) to kill ever more unborn, most recently those lucky few who’ve escaped an abortion’s end only to be returned to the abortionist to serve out their full sentence.
"BTW, George, do you and I reside in the same state now?"
Mrs. P,(I gather)
Illinois. Yes?
George,
Do they let you use knives at the table?
Mrs. P
Mrs. P,
Yes, butter knives, but our steaks must be cut up by certified kitchen professionals.
George, you and I must not only be in the same state but the same diocese too!
BTW, Mrs. FLG places corks on the end of FLG's fork. And folks wonder why I like him so much...
Mrs. P
Mrs. P,
Ah, but you haven’t experienced the elysian age as I have – governed by Milorad Blagojevich and represented by Rahm Emanuel!
And FLG! I won’t venture a guess as to what’s behind that but trust Mrs. FLG knows best, though, if truth be told, I stabbed myself once when confronted with a formal dinner setting.
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