Last post on the subject

As I said, I think we need some sort of rational framework for analyzing, what I have characterized as non-clear cut cases of rape, ie when there is no force involved, no roofies, and one party is not far more sober than the other. This was actually what I was trying to get at with all my rambling.

Male responsibilities: They must act towards all women, at all times, as if they are their sister. Personally, I don't have a sister, but I can imagine how I would feel about one. If a man wants to do something that he would not want done to his sister, then he must ask permission. If the girl is too drunk, obviously this does not matter, she cannot consent. I think this is a reasonable working idea. However, as I said, there will still be cases when a guy takes an action that he wouldn't mind happening to his sister, but the particular partner he is with might. This is unfortunately unavoidable unless we get into the hell of asking every single thing during an encounter. Can I take off your shirt? Can I touch your breasts? Etc? That is just not reasonable.

The problem is that if he takes some action that wouldn't mind happening to his sister, his partner may still object to it. And even if she tells him no, he immediately stops, and apologizes, some emotional damage has been done to his partner. I don't know how to get around this problem.

Female responsibilities: They have to realize that they are in more danger than men when they get drunk. It isn't right, but it is a fact of life. They have a responsibility to be circumspect regarding when and where they drink and the choices they make after having been drinking. This isn't about them deserving what they get, or any stupid argument like that. They simply have to use good judgment, which some young women are not currently. In fairness, this is a good rule for both sexes, but it is particularly important that we emphasize it to young women.

So where does this leave us:
Any violation of the above responsibilities is to be frowned upon and denounced vociferously. However, rape, as a criminal act, must be defined as when one party continues an action even after the other told them to stop. Or when one party is unknowingly drugged. Or one party is too drunk to willingly consent. I am not sure how to deal with both parties being drunk and no force is used.

Update: I decided to post one more on the subject, it is here.